Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? update

by kevin22262, Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:35:52 PM EST

For Barack Obama to pick Tim Kaine as VP would be a HUGE slap in the face of most women, liberals and progressives. Kaine may have been a good choice for Democrats in his state but when it comes to some of the issues that are most important for the nations women, progressives, liberals and Democrats, he fails.

Kaine is "anti-choice". The whole term "pro-life" is just a cover for being anti-choice.

The "anti-choice" group that bills themselves as "Democrats for Life" thinks Kaine would be a great choice:

The Boston Globe recently ran an article analyzing Senator Obama's options for his Vice President.  The candidate they were the most concerned with was pro-life Democrat Virginia Governor Tim Kaine.  Heralded as a man with a Harvard degree who is fluent in Spanish and a devout Catholic, Governor Kaine's attributes are praised as assets that would help balance out Obama's ticket.  The most important of which are the governor's strong pro-life beliefs.  Senator Obama and Governor Kaine have a standing friendship and Obama was quoted as saying that in politics you don't have too many friends, "...but the governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia is my friend."

Because of Governor Kaine's pro-life beliefs, the article argued that he is affable and electable to Republicans as well.  This is critically important for balancing out Senator Obama's ticket.  DFLA is excited to see the possibilities that Governor Kaine could bring to the table and urges its memebrs to read this interesting article.

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.ph p?option=com_content&task=view&i d=373&Itemid=2

For me, this is enough to say NO WAY to Tim Kaine for VP.

From the Democrats for Life website:

Who We Are

   Democrats for Life of America, Inc. is a national organization for pro-life members of the Democratic party.

Our Mission

   Democrats for Life of America exists to foster respect for life, from the beginning of life to natural death. This includes, but is not limited to, opposition to abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. Democrats for Life of America is one of over 200 member organizations of Consistent Life: an international network for peace, justice and life.

What We Do

   We mobilize Democrats at local, state, and national levels to:

       * elect pro-life Democrats to office
        * support pro-life Democrats while in an elected position
        * promote a pro-life plank in the Democratic Party platform
        * achieve pro-life legislation with the help of national and state pro-life democrats
        * participate actively in Democratic party functions and offices

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.ph p?option=com_content&task=view&i d=45&Itemid=40

Sounds nice... right?

They are consistent with their "life" views", something the religious right and the wacko right might try doing.

But... their agenda is to elect "pro-life" (anti-choice) Democrats. Period.

If this group thinks Kaine would be a great choice, then I must disagree.

update
I wish we on the left would stop using the term "pro-life", these nut jobs are "anti-choice".

The term "pro-life" was hijacked by the righties from the anti death penalty people (which I am one of).

...One last thing. I went to Drinking Liberally after I posted this. I did not expect more than about 40 comments max. ... hmm ... I guess I was wrong. :)

night everyone.



Tags: tim kaine, VP, Barack Obama, Democrats for Life (all tags)

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Sorry... (2.00 / 4)

but I am going to "Just Say No" to Kaine or any other "Anti-Choice" (pro-life) Democrat. ... Unless... it is our only choice.  ugh.


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by kevin22262 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:37:09 PM EST

Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

He voted against a gay marriage ban (it passed anyway) but he does state marriage is between a man and a woman, and he was pretty weasly about the whole thing.

I never thought Obama would pick Hillary. If he did, it would be tough to vote against her.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

And that's the same position as Hillary Clinton as marriage rights, not to mention virtually all elected Democrats.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. Stating it's between man and a woman (2.00 / 2)

means you oppose marriage equality. Big difference.

She has appeared in the gay pride parade every year. She supported Gavin Newsom, whereas Obama would not be seen in the same room as Gavin or be photographed with him.

Two gay men cared for her father (they lived nextdoor) and were with him when he died. Years later, one of the men was in the hospital and his partner did not have the rights to visit him because he was not his spouse or a blood relative. It made a big impression on her.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. Stating it's between man and a woman (none / 0)

Yep - Clinton's position and the position of virtually every elected Democrat is support of civil unions, not marriage for all.

Now, that's not my position - I believe in equality in marriage. But it is theirs.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She does not oppose marriage equality (none / 0)

I know you wish she opposed it, but she does not.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:50:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She does not oppose marriage equality (2.00 / 1)

I know you wish to continue pretending, but Sen. Clinton was very clear that she supported federal recognition of civil unions but not of gay marriage, which she left as a "states' rights" issue.

Q: What is at the heart of your opposition to same-sex marriage?

A: Well, I prefer to think of it as being very positive about civil unions. You know, it's a personal position. How we get to full equality is the debate we're having, & I am absolutely in favor of civil unions with full equality of benefits, rights, and privileges. I want to proceed with equalizing federal benefits.

And I've also been a very strong supporter of letting the states maintain their jurisdiction over marriage. I want to repeal Section 3 of DOMA, which stands in the way of the extension of benefits to people in committed, same-sex relationships. I will be very strongly in favor of doing that as president.

This was August of last year.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's leaving the door open (none / 0)

she's nudging the debate in a certain direction.

"How we get to full equality is the debate we're having" she's nudging in that direction.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's leaving the door open (2.00 / 1)

Ah, I see.  We're now not only supposed to give Sen. Clinton the benefit of the doubt, we're supposed to read between the lines and accept the "nudge nudge, wink wink" code-words that only you can see as Gospel truth.

Sorry, I read nothing more and nothing less into that than what she said.  And what she has consistently said is that she's in favor of equality of rights--meaning civil unions with the same civil benefits as marriage--while leaving marriage up to the states to decide.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes exactly. (none / 0)

She is not advocating that marriage is between a man and a woman be codified into law. Kaine did.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes exactly. (2.00 / 1)

Except in 1996 when she did advocate it on her husband's behalf?

And for the record, Kaine never advocated that "marriage is between a man and a woman be codified into law."  You yourself said it:  "He voted against a gay marriage ban (it passed anyway) but he does state marriage is between a man and a woman"

He voted against the ban--that is, against codifying it into law--but specified his personal belief that marriage is between a man and a woman.  Just like Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, John Kerry...


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are not getting it (none / 0)

What is marriage equality? It means marriage is not restricted to hetero couples.

Look at Hillary's statements, when has she ever stated explicitly it's between a man and a woman? That is a Republican talking point.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 01:27:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are not getting it (none / 0)

http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26 937.html

The most common liberal argument for civil union but against marriage was summed up by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton in January. "Marriage," she said, when pressed to take a position, "has got historic, religious, and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage has always been: between a man and a woman."

Since then, she's certainly moderated her position somewhat, but she still does not support forcing a recognition of marriage, only leaving it up to the states to decide--which means we'll have a few states that allow it, but a huge majority of states specifically banning it in their constitutions.

http://gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?new sid=17379741&BRD=2729&PAG=461&am p;dept_id=568864&rfi=6

On Wednesday, Clinton presented her position on marriage equality as more one of pragmatism.

"I believe in full equality of benefits, nothing left out," she said. "From my perspective there is a greater likelihood of us getting to that point in civil unions or domestic partnerships and that is my very considered assessment."

It was at this point that the senator stated her support for "full equality of benefits, nothing left out," before saying that civil unions offered the more certain route to that goal.

"If you go the next step and say, 'But I want what is called marriage,' you're going to have a problem."


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:21:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's come around since 2000 (none / 0)

She said that in 2000.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 09:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are not getting it (none / 0)

Shit, catfish, you just got burned. Hard.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 01:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

John Kerry did not say it either (none / 0)

As late as 2004, he would not come out and say it was ONLY between a man and a woman.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 01:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Kerry did not say it either (none / 0)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/article s/2005/05/06/democrats_platform_shouldnt _back_gay_marriage_kerry_says/

US Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that he believes it's a mistake for the Massachusetts Democratic Party to include a plank in its official platform in support of same-sex marriage, saying that such a statement does not conform with the broad views of party members.

Kerry, who opposes same-sex marriage but supports civil unions, said in an interview with the Globe that he would prefer that the party not mention gay marriage in its platform, because Democrats continue to disagree on how to handle the issue.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:21:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John Kerry did not say it either (none / 0)

Oh and before you add something like "yes but he never said 'man and woman'..."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9505E0DB163EF93BA35750C0A9629C8B6 3

Mr. Kerry answered slowly, first laying out his minutely calibrated stance on gay marriage. ''I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman,'' he said, to polite applause. ''But -- but -- but: I believe it's important in the United States of America that we recognize that we have a Constitution which has an equal protection clause,'' he said, to growing applause.

That's 2004.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK - I stand corrected. (none / 0)

I remember he was pretty good on this issue.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 09:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK - I stand corrected. (none / 0)

I consider anybody who stands up for federally-recognized civil unions and against codifying gay marriage bans to be pretty good on the issue, personally.  It's not the end of the road, but it's a huge leap further than where we are right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly in love with Kaine, but he's a lot more moderate in his religious/moral views than a lot of people are giving him credit for.  This is one of those issues--he says he's personally opposed to it, just like many high-profile progressive Democrats, and also just like them, he opposes codifying that personal belief into law.

There are plenty of people I'd rather see as the VP choice than Kaine, and Sen. Clinton is among them, but Kaine ought not be a deal-breaker.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not even close (2.00 / 1)

"nearly all elected Democrats."


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not even close (none / 0)

So, what % of elected Democrats believe that all should be able to get married whatever their sexual preference?

Most are in line with public opinion and support civil unions.

You may not want to accept that, but it's the truth.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (2.00 / 2)

SO sad to bring facts to your normal rant;

Hillary Clinton Quotes opposing Same Sex Marriage: "I want to let the states determine whether or not they will support civil unions, domestic partnerships or marriage." [Speech in Hamptom, New Hampshire 01/06/08 www.cnn.com/video/#video/politics/2008 01/25/sot.clinton.same.sex.marriage.cnn]

"If our governor and our legislature support marriage in New York, I'm not going to be against that." from a meeting with LGBT leaders in New York City, October 2006, published by Gay City News

When asked by Joe Solmonese, what is at the heart of her opposition to same sex marriage, she replied,  "It's a personal position... How we get to full equality is the debate we are having." [from the Logo debate, August 9, 2007 www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/Dem200708 09.pdf]

   SUPPORTS INTERIM GOAL: FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FOR COUPLES

   From her website: Hillary is an original cosponsor of the Domestic Partnership Benefits and Obligation Act, which would grant the same benefits, including health insurance, to domestic partners of federal employees that are currently offered to employees' legal spouses. [www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/lgbt]

   SUPPORTS INTERIM GOAL: CIVIL UNIONS AND DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS

   From her website: Hillary will work to ensure that all Americans in committed relationships have equal benefits -- from health insurance to life insurance, property rights, and more. [www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/lgbt]

   Hillary Clinton Quotes supporting Civil Unions: "I am absolutely in favor of civil unions with full equality, full equality of benefits, rights and privileges." [from the Logo debate, August 9, 2007 www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/Dem200708 09.pdf]

   PARTIAL SUPPORT OF INTERIM GOAL: REPEAL THE FEDERAL DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT (DOMA)

   Senator Clinton supports repeal of Section 3 of DOMA, which forbids the federal government to recognize same sex marriages. Section 2 of DOMA allows states not to recognize same sex marriages performed out of state. Even if Section 2 was repealed most states would not recognize same sex marriages since they are explicitly forbidden in their State Constitution.

   Hillary Clinton Quotes supporting partial repeal of DOMA: "I want to repeal Section 3 of DOMA, which stands in the way of the extension of benefits to people in committed same sex relationships, and I will be very strongly in favor of doing that as President." [from the Logo debate, August 9, 2007 www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/Dem200708 09.pdf]

PARTIAL SUPPORT OF EQUALITY GOAL: FREEDOM OF GENDER

There is no public mention of her support or opposition to other transgender-related goals such as equal access to health care, declaring chosen gender on official documents (birth certificates and driver's licenses), and access to public rest rooms.

Hillary Clinton Quotes on trans-inclusive Hate Crimes and ENDA legislations: "We're going to expand our federal hate crimes legislation and pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and assure that they are both fully inclusive of sexual orientation and gender identity." [from her Message to LGBT Americans as published on Our Chart www.ourchart.com/node/299303]


by zerosumgame on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

She was asked about marriage at the CNN faith forum and said that in her view, marriage was between a man and a woman. But she supported civil unions. And letting states decide.

The positions are not internally consistent, nor are Obama's, which are identical.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

I thought the primary wars were over.

At issue here is Kaine's positions -- and I find them abhorrent.

Let's discuss Kaine and not rehash old news.

Kaine is not the right choice -- he's as bad as Hagel or Nunn.

I can't believe he'll be chosen. But I'll wait and see and then decide what to do.


by cuppajoe on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (2.00 / 1)

As bad as Hagel?

Seriously?

Let's see what ontheissues.org has to say about Hagel and abortion:

  • Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
  • Voted YES on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
  • Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
  • Voted NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
  • Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
  • Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
  • Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
  • Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
  • Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
  • Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
  • Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
  • Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)
  • Rated 100% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-life stance (190 members). (Dec 2006)
  • Prohibit transporting minors across state lines for abortion. (Jan 2008)


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

Too bad they don't list Kaine's abortion record. I just went to the site. Perhaps they'll get Kaine and his record up there some time. Hope it's not after he's on the ticket.

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions and I'd  find him as offensive as Hagel or Nunn.

It's not just the abortion issue but that it one important factor.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (none / 0)

I did not bring her into it, the poster I replied to made a fact free assertion and I put some actual data into the argument. Funny how you find facts offensive.


by zerosumgame on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 09:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kaine also opposes marriage equality (2.00 / 1)

Where does my post say I don't find facts relevant?

Is that the cry of someone who just wants to shut someone up?

I think facts are relevant -- and Kaine's positions on social issues are facts you can't get around.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 07:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not quite accurate... (none / 0)

He signed the bill putting the measure on the ballot because he believed it should be decided by the voters...but he personally voted against the measure on election day...


by SaveElmer on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:55:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed... (2.00 / 2)

Of course, I'll support Obama over McBush no matter what. I guess it's just that Kaine doesn't impress me much. He's too conservative for my taste. JMHO.

Otherwise, the whole VP speculation madness is just driving me crazy.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed... (2.00 / 1)

Sure!  Bill Clinton was too conservative for my tastes, but I voted for him twice.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (none / 0)

Being personally opposed to abortion does not mean pushing to ban it. He made his feelings clear in 2005 but also made it clear that he recognizes a woman's right to choose.

This is why I loathe NARAL and other groups as much as I do. Does a candidate have to throw a confetti party to celebrate abortion? And just because one has an X and a Y chromosome, does it mean he is not allowed to have an opinion about the procedure in general?


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:38:44 PM EST

He pushed to roll it back (2.00 / 1)

he campaigned for governor saying "as governor, I will outlaw late-term abortions."

Abortions are a private matter. If a Dem is in a jam and has to sign a bill that rolls back abortion rights, fine. But he shouldn't be the one bringing it up in the first place.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:40:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He pushed to roll it back (none / 0)

No one supports late term abortion unless it is a life or death matter.


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you push to roll back rights (none / 0)

it's a lot different. You're actively between my legs meddling in my privacy. Get out of there it is none of your business. If women miscarry they are now subject to this friggin law, it requires an abortion procedure to remove the (dead) fetus.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not true (none / 0)

once the baby is dead, it's not an abortion, it's a stillbirth.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He pushed to roll it back (2.00 / 1)

That is incorrect.  There are in fact some of us who support a woman's right to autonomy over her own body up until the exact moment the baby becomes not part of her body.  We may not like a woman's decision to have a late-term abortion, and we certainly would wish to do all we can to prevent it, but the government has no place outlawing it.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They are called (none / 0)

murderers.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Murderers eh? (none / 0)

You know, you might be a better fit at someplace like Free Republic, LittleGreenFootballs, or RedState.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:26:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Murderers eh? (none / 0)

People that beliefs, purely based on choice an abortion is ok up until the moment the baby is separated from the mother are murderer.  Health of the mother is one thing, but having that be an actual stance is murder, I stand by what I said.  I am pro choice, but I do believe there are limits, and thank goodness most of the country is with me on that.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Murderers eh? (none / 0)

"There are in fact some of us who support a woman's right to autonomy over her own body up until the exact moment the baby becomes not part of her body."

yup, that's murder.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speak for yourself. (none / 0)

I support it.


by Dumbo on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I want to see and hear him say that (2.00 / 3)

he IS "Pro-Choice"!  Period.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I want to see and hear him say that (none / 0)

It's a phony label just like "pro life" is. This is not a black and white issue.


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I want to see and hear him say that (2.00 / 1)

I don't consider "pro-choice" a phony label.

Why do you say that? Could you explain? What then is the difference between a pro-choice person and an anti-choice person?

I'd like to know your thinking on this.


by cuppajoe on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right to have an opinion... (2.00 / 1)

And just because one has an X and a Y chromosome, does it mean he is not allowed to have an opinion about the procedure in general?

I assume you are talking about the right to have an opinion about abortions performed upon men.  I can understand how you, as a man (like me), might feel strongly one way or the other about the issue of men getting abortions.  And, likewise, you can surely understand how many women might have strong opinions about abortions for women and the rights of women to them.

I suggest we split the difference.  We should have a constitutional amendment banning abortions for men.  That is, if a majority of men want such an amendment.  Personally, I don't want anybody amending my implied rights under Roe to get an abortion, if I could ever figure out some way to get pregnant, which is a vexing issue, to be sure.


Should this man have a right to an abortion?


by Dumbo on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (none / 0)

I have been a member of NARAL and those "other groups",  none of which has ever "celebrated" abortion with a confetti party.  Whatever your chromosome you're certainly entitled to your opinion.  What you're not entitled to is to impose it on others.

I will never vote for anyone who isn't crystal clear that the state has no business interferring in personal reproductive matters.

Never.


by Tolstoy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 01:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (2.00 / 1)

Kaine does NOT support legal restrictions on abortion.

He is pro-choice.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:39:41 PM EST

no (2.00 / 1)

he IS "pro-life". He is tap dancing around the issue because he is a dem.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He rolled back abortion rights (2.00 / 1)

they are now stricter than when he took office. Or at least that was his campaign promise.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He rolled back abortion rights (none / 0)

What a post!

He did x
or - maybe he didn't

Now, which is it and why are you posting this if you don't know and won't provide evidence?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:43:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He proposed rolling them back (none / 0)

he should be a Republican.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He proposed rolling them back (none / 0)

Rolling back what, in particular?

More vagueness, more innuendo. Maybe you could try some detail, some specificity, some evidence.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He proposed rolling them back (2.00 / 3)

BTW, was the person who said these pro-choice or pro-life?

# Make abortion rare by supporting adoption & foster care. (Apr 2008)
# Potential for life begins at conception, but don't intrude. (Apr 2008)
# Opposed China's forced abortion & Romania's forced pregnancy. (Apr 2008)
# 1974: pro-choice fervency not based on any personal abortion. (Jul 2007)
# 1993 health plan included RU-486 & widely available abortion. (Jul 2007)
# 1999: keep abortion safe, legal & rare into next century. (Jul 2007)
# Lift ban on stem cell research to cure devastating diseases. (Jun 2007)
# 1993:Early action on abortion rights ended Right's dominance. (Jun 2007)
# Personally would never abort; but deeply values choice. (Jun 2007)
# Abortion is a sad, tragic choice to many women. (May 2007)
# Fought for years to get "Plan B" contraceptive on the market. (Dec 2006)
# Respect Roe v. Wade, but make adoptions easier too. (Nov 2006)
# Prevention First Act: federal funds for contraception. (Oct 2006)
# We can find common ground on abortion issue. (Sep 2005)
# Alternatives to pro-choice like forced pregnancy in Romania. (Nov 2003)
# Must safeguard constitutional rights, including choice. (Oct 2000)
# Late term abortion only if life or health are at risk. (Oct 2000)
# Remain vigilant on a woman's right to chose. (Jan 2000)
# Keep abortion safe, legal and rare. (Jan 1999)
# Being pro-choice is not being pro-abortion. (Jan 1999)
# Reach out to teens to reduce teen sex problems. (Jan 1999)
# Supports parental notice & family planning. (Feb 1997)
# Cairo Document: right to abortion but not as family planning. (Sep 1996)


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He proposed rolling them back (2.00 / 1)

Who said those things?

Late term abortion only if life or health are at risk?
 That abortion's a sad, tragic choice for women?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Abortion.htm
Hillary Clinton


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He proposed rolling them back (none / 0)

So, what?

Kaine is the issue here.


by cuppajoe on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is pretty consistent, abortion rights (none / 0)

She wants people to have access to contraception so abortion is necessary only in rare cases. She opposes China's forced abortion law (one-child law, which causes the abortion of many female fetuses.) Even this "Potential for life begins at conception, but don't intrude. " The POTENTIAL for life begins at conception.

The nice thing about a candidate with a record is, you can see how their positions evolved.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:05:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (none / 0)

To some people it's not enough. Remember the 1992 convention? They had a series of speakers talking about choice, which I thought was grat, but at the end the speakers (Kate Michalman was one) and DNC Chair Ron Brown stood onn the podium clapping to music while confetti dropped from the ceiling. I thought I was going to be ill. Choice is serious matter and they were treating it like someone just won the lottery.  


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think they won that year too. (none / 0)

So it didn't blow the whole election.


by catfish2 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:06:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (2.00 / 1)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.  Earlier in the day, I noted that I personally would never burn the American flag, but that I would never vote to ban flag burning.  Is Kaine's position any different?  Who really cares what he believes if he has no desire to legislate his beliefs?

Anyway, criticizing someone because they are endorsed by a group you dislike is a logical fallacy.  That's like attacking Obama because Farrakhan has said good things about him.


by rfahey22 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:42:23 PM EST

I really (2.00 / 1)

don't care how HE feels, but is he Pro-Choice?

Everything I see says he is "pro-life" .. that is anti-choice.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (2.00 / 1)

Only if you've bought the right-wing talking point that "pro-life" means "pro-controlling-women's-bodies."

Gov. Kaine doesn't seem to have bought that talking point.  Nor, for that matter, do the many other Roman Catholic Democrats who personally oppose abortion but support a woman's right to choose for herself.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (2.00 / 1)

Only if you've bought the right-wing talking point that "pro-life" means "pro-controlling-women's-bodies."

sorry - maybe i am unfamiliar with new terminology.  could you explain what the distinction is between pro-life and pro-choice for me?  because clearly i do not know what they mean.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (2.00 / 2)

Well, Republicans would like you to believe that being Pro-Choice (respecting a woman's right to choose for herself) means that one is NOT Pro-Life (respecting life). Sadly, they have done a very good job hijacking 'Pro-life' over the past couple of decades.

Me?
Well, in all honesty...I am both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. You could even say I am a bit Anti-Abortion...but, what I am NOT is Anti-Choice.
I 100% support a woman's right to choose.
I 100% respect a woman's right to make decisions about her body.
I am 100% Pro-Choice.
I still think myself as also Pro-Life, though.
I am, and always have been....BOTH.

I, for one, don't see a conflict between the two...no matter how much Republicans want to try and make it one.


by Kysen on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another factoid (none / 0)

Hillary's predecessor in the Senate, and the man who implored her to run for his Senate seat, supported a ban on late-term abortion and once said "you women are ruining the Democratic Party with your insistence on abortion"

Secondly, I'm amazed by how many of my liberal friends are unapologetic about being pro-life or "pro-life." Most include that stance in the large pro-life stance, anti-death penalty, anti-war. I personally think Roe's days are numbered anyway and that the country will begin to restrict abortion rights, with the people's blessings.

At the end of the day, American abortion laws are really some of most liberal in the world. I live in Italy, where late-term abortion is illegal and punishable by prison. In England and Spain, abortion at request is NOT legal.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another factoid (none / 0)

Most include that stance in the large pro-life stance, anti-death penalty, anti-war.

I believe those are Tim Kaine's positions as well.  At least it's logical and consistent: pro-life across the board.

Makes sense to me.


by Will Graham on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Moynihan was an ass on that issue (none / 0)

he was a good senator but that was an asshole thing to say. What is your point? That you want to emulate Moynihan's asshole stances, not just his good ones?


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

America leads the world in people's rights (none / 0)

with some exceptions, but America tends to have the most wholistic view of the rights of humankind.

If other countries have a dark-ages view of women's rights, and my friends who have worked in Europe say they are more sexist than American corporations, we should not copy them.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 11:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (2.00 / 1)

This article criticizes him because he is a "pro-choice Catholic."
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/ca tholics-fear-obama-considering-pro-abort ion/story.aspx?guid={64B99B6E-1228-4104-98CD-14F6501965EC}& amp;dist=hppr
We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (none / 0)

Actually - It calls him a pro-abortion Catholic.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (2.00 / 1)

Well, that's sort of a rhetorical game.  If he's "pro-life" but would not outlaw abortion if presented with the opportunity, then he is de facto "pro-choice," isn't he?  My understanding is that he supports parental consent and would place some restrictions on late-term abortions (which a fair number of Democrats also support), but would not support a ban on abortions.  I'm not really sure how much out of the Democratic mainstream that would place him, if at all.


by rfahey22 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really (none / 0)

So is pro-choice anti-life?


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 02:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no. (none / 0)

pro-life was hijacked by the righties. It was originally used by the anti-death penalty crowd.

There is nothing pro-life about most of these anti-choice people. They are not pro-woman, they are not pro-life of an inmate, they are not pro-life of a soldier, they are not pro-life of an Iraqi, etc.

Yes... I know Kaine is a little different, BUT he identifies with the religious "pro-life" movement.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Darn..I almost posted in my message (2.00 / 1)

in the other diary.. an identical thing...sorry cannot take it down..or don't know how to delete comments.
Anyway glad you wrote this diary..I don't know who is pushing this agenda of making Kaine the VP nominee. His anti-abortion stance is DOA for me.
by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:48:16 PM EST

Re: Darn..I almost posted in my message (2.00 / 1)

Your characterization is not right.  Here's an anti-choice critic of Kaine.

"Sadly Kaine represents yet another politician who professes to be 'personally opposed' yet refuses to back any meaningful efforts to stop abortion in America."

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/ca tholics-fear-obama-considering-pro-abort ion/story.aspx?guid={64B99B6E-1228-4104-98CD-14F6501965EC}& amp;dist=hppr


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think so..Greg Kandra puts him as (none / 0)

a member of DFLA whose mission is anti-abortion..

http://deacbench.blogspot.com/2008/07/ca tholic-running-mate-for-obama.html


by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think so..Greg Kandra puts him as (none / 0)

From the link you posted - someone who thinks that he's not pro-life.

The media has been trying to portray him as pro-life.

"Kaine claims a personal, religious opposition to abortion, but nonetheless supports legal abortions. That's not different from Democrats in presidential elections past like Mario Cuomo -- who made famous the "personally opposed but" statement that has rankled pro-life advocates."

"Kaine told the Washington Post, during his 2001 campaign for Lt. Governor, that he "opposes efforts to restrict abortions" and that he "opposes efforts to require a parent's consent before a minor gets an abortion."

http://www.lifenews.com/nat4080.html

He also voted against the amendment banning same-sex marriage.

So he is the typical dissident Catholic that wants to appear more pro-life when it will get him votes.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your forgot to add these following lines.. (2.00 / 1)


"Then, facing more intense scrutiny in his 2005 gubernatorial bid, Kaine changed positions and said he favors abortion limits."
Please enunciate which abortion limits is he favorable to?

by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is courting faith-based voters (none / 0)

so I think Obama is pushing this. He wants those values voters.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Once again (2.00 / 1)


   the slap in the face bullshit.

  You guys would seriously claim anything as a slap in the face. if a study came out that said women liked laptop computers more than desktops...and then it turned out that Obama used only desktops, you would cite that as proof that Obama hates women.

  seriously, give it up. Kaine is not a slap in the face to anyone. He sure aint the best...but HE HASN'T BEEN PICKED YET for God's sake!! grow up!!!


by southernman on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:51:41 PM EST

Re: Once again (2.00 / 1)

The average age commenting here is around the 40's and you would think they could add a little substance to their argument.  

But but but he is pro life!

/So pathetic


by hocuspocus on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (2.00 / 2)

What I find ironic, is some of the loudest anti-Kaine screamers (based on this issue) will be the folks who supported Hillary while she was making her play to the very same pro-life Cathlics that Kaine appeals to.


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:51:46 PM EST

When was this? (none / 0)

Catholics in Pennsylvania happened to vote for her. But she has been VERY CLEAR that abortion is an intensely private matter and she has every intention to preserve abortion rights, not roll them back.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When was this? (2.00 / 1)

She's much more moderate than you give credit for. I don't think she goes as far as some on here do.


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So this never happened (none / 0)

Nice.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When was this? (2.00 / 1)

Whose positions?

Late term abortion only if life or health are at risk?
 That abortion's a sad, tragic choice for women?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Abortion.htm
Hillary Clinton


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When was this? (none / 0)

Personally would never abort; but deeply values choice. (Jun 2007)

This, essentially, is the same position as Kaine...with the obvious exception that his is the male version of it.

Both Kaine and Hillary are personally against abortion...but, both respect and value a woman's right to choose.

While I agree that there are some legitimate questions about Kaine's 'creds'....I believe that this issue is being WAY blown out of proportion. Like, beyond all sense of logic.


by Kysen on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No - he rolled back rights (none / 0)

you can try all you want, you guys did this with Obama. Kaine and Clinton do not share the same position on abortion rights.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She didn't roll back rights (none / 0)

Nice try though. It is a tough choice for a lot of women. But it's a private one.


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When was this? (none / 0)

Which is EXACTLY his position!!!


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who do you want, exactly? (2.00 / 2)

Name one single politician in the entire country who you think Obama should pick for Vice President who isn't Hillary Clinton.

I can assure you, BTW, that whoever you name, I can find an issue where they're not progressive enough.  Check Dennis Kucinich's not-entirely-clear record on flag burning and abortion, for example; or Russ Feingold's vote to confirm John Roberts to SCOTUS.

But hey, let's go ahead and play the game.  One single name.  One person who would satisfy you who isn't Hillary Clinton.

Don't pretend it's about the issues when it's about the individual.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:57:18 PM EST

Re: Who do you want, exactly? (none / 0)

I'm still waiting on some of our very active Kaine opponents to give me a single name of somebody who would be acceptable to them who is not Hillary Clinton.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who do you want, exactly? (none / 0)

Here it is, the next morning, still none of the Kaine-opponents have given one single name of a VP who would be acceptable to them who isn't Hillary Clinton.  I wonder why that is.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who do you want, exactly? (2.00 / 2)

Well said.

Personally, I'd be happy with many of the names being tossed around lately - Including Hillary.


January 20 & sricki join with The engels in love!
by January 20 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:17:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who do you want, exactly? (2.00 / 2)

I'd be fine with Sen. Clinton as VP as well.  I'm just trying to get at their motives.  Is it the issues?  Or is it Hillary?

Considering I'm still waiting on them to give me one single solitary name other than hers, I have a hunch.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who do you want, exactly? (2.00 / 1)

You know, if y'all can't come up with one single solitary human being aside from Hillary Clinton who is an acceptable vice-president, it's a lucky break for you that she lost the primary.  Because she'd be left without anyone for a running-mate.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Choice (pro-life) Tim Kaine? (none / 0)

Personally, I don't think any candidate is perfect. After all, no one agrees with me on everything!

So I'm forced to take my imperfect self to the voting booth to vote for an imperfect candidate.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 09:58:22 PM EST

Well (2.00 / 1)

If you all hate Kaine that much, you can always vote for John McCain. I'm sure he'll protect Roe v. Wade, or at least that's what PUMA's think.


by RandyMI on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:04:58 PM EST

Abortion is not McCain's top issue (2.00 / 1)

and besides, he's a Republican.

But when the Democrat is rolling back women's abortion rights, why should we vote for him?


by catfish2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:07:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cause you have before (2.00 / 1)

every Democratic candidate for President since Roe supported some form of restriction on abortion.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And none of them happens to be a female.. (2.00 / 1)

unfortunately...easy to rule over the woman's body..ah..right..I see..


by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

None of them (none / 0)

did anything to restrict abortion because it wasn't a top issue for them. They focused on other more important issues, as will Obama.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And none of them happens to be a female.. (2.00 / 1)

I'm a woman and I'm pro-choice.

But I recognize that there are many women who are anti-choice.  Also, I've read the polls and there is ZERO correlation between one's position on abortion and one's gender.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tim Kaine is on records stating he supports (none / 0)

abortion limits..I need to know what limits..

"Then, facing more intense scrutiny in his 2005 gubernatorial bid, Kaine changed positions and said he favors abortion limits."


by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tim Kaine is on records stating he supports (2.00 / 1)

No third trimester except in cases of rape/incest/health risk to the mother.  Which happens to be exactly the same as every major Democratic candidate who ran this cycle.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tim Kaine is on records stating he supports (none / 0)

So why don't you find out before making claims?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 10:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Research is hard (none / 0)

Much easier to be OUTRAGED!!!